The Trillion Dollar Coin?

Jul 2009
5,893
474
Port St. Lucie
interesting...what (in your opinion) it the E.U. supposed to be about?

Europe is the single largest economy (well maybe 2nd now due to the Great Recession) in the world, the 2nd greatest military power (and aligned with the greatest) in the world and a cultural treasure trove. What the Euros think of themselves and the laws they wish to live under is not for me to even guess at as an American but if the EU wants to take it's rightful place as masters of this world or at the vary least stabilize the economy, they need to get their act together and get a formal constitution in place. As it is, the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is up to and the legs want to amputate the arms out of spite. The whole thing is unraveling at a time they should be at their greatest since the fall of Rome.
 

myp

Jan 2009
5,841
50
Political stability alone will NOT bring economic recovery. The large variance in fiscal policies yields a Euro that trades VERY differently in each member state which means the optimal monetary policy (or even an unoptimal, acceptable monetary policy) is DIFFERENT for every member state. The disparity on the fiscal side that is currently there will never lead to long-term stability because of the uniform monetary policy.
 
Jul 2009
5,893
474
Port St. Lucie
Political stability alone will NOT bring economic recovery. The large variance in fiscal policies yields a Euro that trades VERY differently in each member state which means the optimal monetary policy (or even an unoptimal, acceptable monetary policy) is DIFFERENT for every member state. The disparity on the fiscal side that is currently there will never lead to long-term stability because of the uniform monetary policy.

And yet political stability made America into an economic powerhouse with a near monopoly on trans-Atlantic trade. Keep in mind America in the early days didn't have a shared currency, didn't have a free trade zone and had several member states try to go to war, the EU is in better shape then we were.
 

myp

Jan 2009
5,841
50
And yet political stability made America into an economic powerhouse with a near monopoly on trans-Atlantic trade. Keep in mind America in the early days didn't have a shared currency, didn't have a free trade zone and had several member states try to go to war, the EU is in better shape then we were.

Correlation does not prove causation. Political stability alone did not make us an economic powerhouse although it played a role. America never had the situation the EU has right now with such a great variance in fiscal policy and a uniform monetary policy. We have it somewhat between states, but the fiscal situation of the states is much more uniform than the EU states, especially because Federal law/policy applies to all of them and Federal spending is spent with all of them in consideration. There is a lot of balancing through transfers from richer states to poorer states. You have no such situation in the EU. They all have not only much more divergent law structures and political systems, but very different fiscal policies, and no strong central coordinator. A dollar in California still isn't very different than a dollar in Louisiana. A Euro in Greece is EXTREMELY different than a Euro in Germany.
 
Jul 2009
5,893
474
Port St. Lucie
Correlation does not prove causation. Political stability alone did not make us an economic powerhouse although it played a role. America never had the situation the EU has right now with such a great variance in fiscal policy and a uniform monetary policy. We have it somewhat between states, but the fiscal situation of the states is much more uniform than the EU states, especially because Federal law/policy applies to all of them and Federal spending is spent with all of them in consideration. There is a lot of balancing through transfers from richer states to poorer states. You have no such situation in the EU. They all have not only much more divergent law structures and political systems, but very different fiscal policies, and no strong central coordinator. A dollar in California still isn't very different than a dollar in Louisiana. A Euro in Greece is EXTREMELY different than a Euro in Germany.

And this is the result of the US being a federation organized by a central gov't with teeth. You kind of proved my point.
 

myp

Jan 2009
5,841
50
And this is the result of the US being a federation organized by a central gov't with teeth. You kind of proved my point.

No I didn't because despite the visions of some of the original EU dreamers, Europe is not one country. Most Europeans don't see it as such and the government structures are not set as such.
 
Jul 2009
5,893
474
Port St. Lucie
No I didn't because despite the visions of some of the original EU dreamers, Europe is not one country. Most Europeans don't see it as such and the government structures are not set as such.

And thus the issues they have.
 
Dec 2012
518
11
Madison, AL
And yet political stability made America into an economic powerhouse with a near monopoly on trans-Atlantic trade. Keep in mind America in the early days didn't have a shared currency, didn't have a free trade zone and had several member states try to go to war, the EU is in better shape then we were.

Silly me. I had always believed it was the enormous advantages of liberty and freedom.
 
Dec 2012
518
11
Madison, AL
And yet political stability made America into an economic powerhouse with a near monopoly on trans-Atlantic trade. Keep in mind America in the early days didn't have a shared currency, didn't have a free trade zone and had several member states try to go to war, the EU is in better shape then we were.

If your theory is right then why isn't the Former Soviet Union the world's lone superpower?
 
Jul 2009
5,893
474
Port St. Lucie
If your theory is right then why isn't the Former Soviet Union the world's lone superpower?

Because it collapsed, you know, the opposite of unity? There was a time that the Soviets were driving new cars and had the most advanced military in the world while Americans were starving in the streets and was suffering from a massive crop failure.
 
Dec 2012
518
11
Madison, AL
Because it collapsed, you know, the opposite of unity? There was a time that the Soviets were driving new cars and had the most advanced military in the world while Americans were starving in the streets and was suffering from a massive crop failure.
I think the problem is your theory.

And your understanding of their history and our is also suspect.
 
Jul 2009
5,893
474
Port St. Lucie
I think the problem is your theory.

And your understanding of their history and our is also suspect.

Compare pre-WW2 USSR and USA. The USSR was booming thanks to Stalin's industrialization efforts and was the world's #1 economy while the USA was facing hyper-deflation, a comatose economy, massive bread and soup lines and it was all made worse by our most fertile farmland turning to desert inside 3 years. The contrast was so stark people were in the streets calling for a socialist revolution (FDR's main reason for the New Deal was to placate the borderline rioters).
 

myp

Jan 2009
5,841
50
What are you guys even debating about here? Political stability alone doesn't mean anything. It is only a part of the puzzle.

When it comes to the Depression, it was very much a monetary policy failure by the Fed- I think Milton Friedman was effective at showing that and even if you disagree, it is those ideas that largely drive monetary policy today for the Fed. And again, that too is just 1 other part of the puzzle.
 
Jul 2009
5,893
474
Port St. Lucie
What are you guys even debating about here? Political stability alone doesn't mean anything. It is only a part of the puzzle.

When it comes to the Depression, it was very much a monetary policy failure by the Fed- I think Milton Friedman was effective at showing that and even if you disagree, it is those ideas that largely drive monetary policy today for the Fed. And again, that too is just 1 other part of the puzzle.

We seem to have gone off topic over my decentralization vs. centralization point. If we don't find our way back on topic, maybe a thread split is in order so we can continue our debate without hijacking this thread?
 
Dec 2012
518
11
Madison, AL
Compare pre-WW2 USSR and USA. The USSR was booming thanks to Stalin's industrialization efforts and was the world's #1 economy while the USA was facing hyper-deflation, a comatose economy, massive bread and soup lines and it was all made worse by our most fertile farmland turning to desert inside 3 years. The contrast was so stark people were in the streets calling for a socialist revolution (FDR's main reason for the New Deal was to placate the borderline rioters).

It was all a lie built on terror. You do realize that don't you?

Socialism has always appealed to the masses, hence Franklin Delano Obama, aka Santa Claus. FDR's main reason was to seize and maintain political power. It worked. Keep the people poor and afraid and they will love you.

See Lord of the Rings, a tale by T.R.R. Tolkien.
 

myp

Jan 2009
5,841
50
It was all a lie built on terror. You do realize that don't you?

Socialism has always appealed to the masses, hence Franklin Delano Obama, aka Santa Claus. FDR's main reason was to seize and maintain political power. It worked. Keep the people poor and afraid and they will love you.

See Lord of the Rings, a tale by T.R.R. Tolkien.

The good v. evil, black v. white narrative is far too simple for the complex, real world.
 
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